Thursday, February 10, 2011

The Great Schism

I think we've been kidding ourselves.

Let me back up. A few months ago, several of the Catholic Infertile Bloggers were interviewed for an article in Our Sunday Visitor. Of those interviewed, I was the only one still actually infertile. The other three, praise God, had all given birth to their children by the time the article ran. I have to be honest - I was dreading the article. I've seen in the past how things can be unintentionally misconstrued by well-meaning reporters/writers, and I was awaiting an article oozing with "stay faithful to Catholic teaching and you'll get pregnant!" Let's face it - unless you've been in the trenches of infertility (and I may even argue unless you are STILL ACTIVELY IN the trenches of infertility), you usually can't write something that will appeal to those who are.

To my amazement and enjoyment, the article was very well-represented. Of course, it did have an underlying tone of "hope," but sometimes we do need that ;) What did strike me as odd was the fact that the interviewer asked: "Are bloggers who have already become pregnant still considered part of the Catholic Infertility Community?"- and he asked this of one of the bloggers who was weeks from delivering her baby (Sew Infertile), and I thought Sew's answer was apropos (who can argue with Sew?), but I was mystified as to why he would ask a preggo that question. While I agreed with Sew's answer, which basically stated that the majority of us have known each other BEFORE the pregnancies, and therefore rejoiced with each other and stuck by each other through the resurrection of the cross of infertility, I am of the opinion that things are not exactly the same after someone "crosses over."

I believe there is a very obvious schism in our group. The haves and the have nots. (The schism is even obvious on my own blogroll!) And of course if you've ever been a have not, you will continue to cheer on other have nots, but if you continue to be a have not, you find it hard to cheer on the haves. It's a question of relating. The haves can relate to the have nots because they were once there. The have nots cannot, and will never relate to the haves. A starving person who suddenly comes upon an abundance of food can always remember what it felt like to be starving. But the person who continues to starve cannot know what it's like to feel bloated and full, and try as they might, they just can't commisserate with that former starving friend who is now bloated and full.

Some of my best blogging buddies are on the other side of the schism. My BFF is on the other side. So it's definitely possible to keep friendship alive across the schism, but the friendship doesn't dissolve the schism. If only it could...

I think of the Catholic Infertility Community as a large conglomerate of the STILL Infertile Catholics and the Catholics who had infertility and are now blessed with child/ren. And I think, plain and simple, the most relatable blogs for the average reader in our community are the ones from their own side of the schism. For example, I very much enjoy reading LifeHopes' blog, and reading her thoughts during her long and arduous battle of infertility really helped me to come to terms with my own. She had a lot of the exact same emotions that I did, particularly in regards to her feelings about having an empty womb. Today, I continue to look forward to her posts in which she addresses her infertility of the past, and how it has molded her and will forever be a part of her. But I read her posts with an attitude of "this is how I imagine I, too, will feel one day." I can no longer relate to EXACTLY how she feels in this exact moment. All You Who Hope, another of my all-time favorites, made a statement on her blog recently about how much she enjoyed reading birth stories while she was pregnant. If you are an infertile reading this blog post right now, I will put money on the fact that you had the exact same reaction that I did upon reading that: "Wow, I become a blubbering mess reading ONE birth story, I can't imagine reading them continually for pleasure!" But I'm sure that the most helpful and most relatable blogs for AYWH during her pregnancy were the ones of people who were going through just what she was.

When a Catholic Infertile crosses over, no matter how much we may love them to pieces, it causes a pain unlike any other - at least, in my experience, and I am pretty sure I'm not alone. Seeing other people get pregnant with ease, regardless of their religion or beliefs, was maybe upsetting for the first year. Now, I couldn't care less that so many people in the world are Fertile Myrtles. Good for them. But when a faithful Catholic infertile becomes pregnant, it is like a knife into my soul. A "na na na na naaaa" from heaven, complete with all the Saints sticking their tongues out at me and the Angels blowing raspberries. It makes me feel like all of my prayers are in vain, that I am not "as worthy" as my friends, and it makes me question my purpose on Earth.

There's a very deliberate reason behind my listing the still Infertile Catholic Blogs with their most recent blog post title and the Crossovers without. I can't handle seeing post titles non-stop on my own blog, like, "The Joys of Breastfeeding," "My Cuddly Little Pumpkin," and "Aren't I The Most Friggin' Lucky Person You've Ever Met?" (OK, so maybe that last one was never anyone's blog post title, but many of them translate into that for the Infertile Reader.) And what I can't handle even more are the complainer posts: "Whoa is me, I have too many babies," "Could My Children Please Stop Kicking Me in Utero, My Ribs Hurt," and "Oh Great, I Have to Go Buy 6-month Clothes because my Baby is Growing So Fast!" I've made a point to keep these blog titles hidden on my own blog, not just for my own sake, but for the sake of my readers, who may just be having a horrible TTC day. When I am in good spirits, and choose to go visit a friend's blog on the Other Side, I click on over, fully aware that I may be met with a lovey-dovey or complainer post. But that's on my own terms.

And that's the biggest difference between the two sides of the Schism. I imagine that those on the other side don't need any self-preservation when it comes to OUR blog post titles, consisting of, "CD 1," "I HATE AF!!!," "Surgery Advice," "Treatment Update," and "Let Me Talk About My Shoes Today Because it's been FIVE EFFING YEARS of Infertility and Treatments and AFs and Tests, and I Have Absolutely Nothing Left to Write About." I'm willing to venture that none of those blog post titles send a sharp, shooting pain directly into the heart of the bloggers with children ;)

Well, that and the other huge difference. Those on the other side don't long with all their heart to be on our side.



Hafsa said...

I'm sorry you feel such pain and I won't lie and say that this post didn't hurt my feelings but you had to get out and I understand it is not a personal attack on any one in particular, it's just raw and honest feelings. Prayers your way.

Perfect Power in Weakness said...

I understand completely! Thanks for putting your thoughts into words. I'm still one of the have nots with you and understand the feelings.

Rebecca said...

As part of neither club, I found this post to be one of the most clear explanations of the 'schism' that I've come across.

Prayers that soon you cross over to the other side!

The IF Cross said...

I'm a have not too and I think your post says it all!! Glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. At first, I felt bad for not really getting all happy for the once have not’s children. During AF I can't look at those blogs, but a week or two after, I enjoy it and get hopeful that I will join them one day.

sweet jane said...

I know this is different for a variety of reasons, but it reminds me of how I felt photographing other people's weddings while praying and waiting to meet someone special myself. What's wrong with me? Why them and not me? My life is passing by and it makes no sense that God doesn't WANT me to be a wife/have a husband. It's not asking so much - it's just the basics, and I would never take them for granted after all I've been through.

All those thoughts....

I admire your honesty, and imagine it must be hard saying it here knowing it may hurt some feelings.

the misfit said...

You know...I've thought a lot (more actually since I STOPPED ranting about it so much) about whether - and, if so, why - the IF pregnancy announcements hurt more than the ordinary-person pregnancy announcements. I can say for sure that my IRL (and very fertile) friend L's late-2010 pregnancy announcement was the hardest thing I have heard in years and I still sometimes (usually) cannot look the girl in the eye - and she was SUPER-considerate in how she told me (early), and never brings it up if it's just her talking to me, and is never awful about it in any way. I think the fact that it's her FIRST and it was so joyful and easy and perfect and "God's will" and openness to life and all the bullsh*t I was expecting when I got married and planned to have a lot of babies to glorify God - is why it bothers me so much.

But second, third, and subsequent pregnancies among fertile friends don't really make much of a dent (though I will subsequently avoid them so I don't have to hear about their pregnancies, but that's just good common sense).

However, the list of pet peeves I have about formerly-infertile bloggers is as long as your arm. It's staggering, the number of things these poor people can do that will upset me. I haven't quite nailed down why, but I think there are a couple of reasons. (1) I trusted them and allowed myself to have expectations that they would act the way they wanted other people to act when they were on the other side, and when they didn't, I was severely disappointed. (Also relevant: I ASSUMED that they felt the same way that I feel now, and sometimes our expectations were different.) (2) I lost someone who understood where I was, and those people are rare, and you cannot replace them. I don't want them to be miserable so I can be happy (I wasn't happy anyway), but being miserable and alone is SO MUCH WORSE. (3) As long as I could reassure myself that there was a giant group of wonderful holy women whom God had afflicted with this cross, I had the comfort that - even if not in MY case - God doesn't send infertility as a sign that He hates you. As more and more get pregnant, all I can say is, "Look, she's holy and virtuous and SO SHE GOT HER BABY." This is not helpful to me. (4) [In many cases] they're too damn happy. Any infertile who announces a BFP with other than ambivalence, disbelief, and foreboding, I will not like ever again [exception here for people who have been infertile for less than five minutes and don't know any better, but I consider those people invaders in the IFosphere anyway]. The people who don't think that they could miscarry, I do not like. The people who make joyful public announcements in the first trimester, I do not like. If they subsequently lose the baby I feel HORRIBLY guilty. But I think my dislike stems from the fact that I know my outlook has been forever changed by IF. I'm pretty sure that after 3-5 years this happens to everyone (I can't think of any exceptions, anyway). If people act as though they're able to revert immediately to people who can't imagine anything going wrong in life ever, I think they're lying to themselves - and the point of the lie is that those who have been disappointed and become jaded (i.e., the rest of us) are bad people. I don't care how good it makes a pregnant woman feel, she doesn't get to take out her guilt issues at the expense of the suffering. I just think that's unacceptable.

So...I am the Grinch. Sometimes I think I serve the role of giving people someone to point to and say, "OK, but I'm not THAT bitter." Look - a purpose in life!

barbie said...

I was always the opposite, I rejoiced when fellow infertiles got pregnant and was more upset with fertile myrtles got pregnant. I found that those that were super fertile took their fertility for granted and usually said stupid things, like "why did God let this happen when I just had a baby 6 mo ago" etc.

I was excited for those fellow soldiers in the infertility battle that were able to move one and become a Mother. THEY understood what a blessing it was.

I'm sorry that our posts are too painful for you. I pray daily that you are blessed with motherhood.

You are in my prayers. Love you.

barbie said...

Wanted to add that no one is given Motherhood because they are good and holy and deserve it. You are not made to suffer infertility because you aren't good enough to be a Mom.

Why the pain has to be there longer for some than others I don't know. But I do know that you aren't being punished.

... said...

Oddly enough, the first thing I noticed about the article was that there was only one “still in the trenches” interviewed and 2 such linked, if I recall correctly. I figured it was the more popular ones and the ones accessed by google.

You are right. People relate with others who are going through the same thing. Always have, always will. I’ve read a lot of “once infertile always infertile” ideas where some statement is made about always bearing the scars of infertility. True enough, but it has always irked me (no matter which side others may have felt I belonged to at the time) because scars imply healing has taken place. It isn’t the same as having an open wound with no end in sight; not the same to have been there as to still be there. And if one ever forgets that, then she has forgotten infertility.

I guess I was on the opposite side in that I took IF blogger pregnancies w/ more excitement than the average person. It was almost a “relief” to see that suffering close, even if it seemed unfair that my continued. But I completely get how it just seems that others get answered prayers and you don’t and it is THAT which seems personal to you and causes the pain. (I think you and I talked about just how personal it all seems sometimes.) However, I did just like you and removed posts titles because there were days when I just wasn’t in the mood. That’s what I needed for self preservation. Perfectly understandable.

I guess I do not know where the “community” ends and begins. I would have froze had I been asked that question.

What I do know is that you do not deserve this and I wish so badly this would end for you. All I can do is pray for you, so I do it constantly.

Beautiful post and very well said.

God Alone Suffices said...

Thank you for this post. I'm actually more like barbie in this regard. When my IRL not IF friends get pregnant, I'm a mess. Especially the ones who got pregnant on their honeymoon and the ones who weren't even trying. I feel like they don't even realize how lucky they are and take their fertility for granted. I get a little pissed off, to be frank. :)

However, with the former IF bloggers, I know they don't take their babies for granted. :) I know they realize how blessed they are, so it doesn't hurt as badly.

Again, thank you for this post. :) I love your honesty!

C. said...
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JellyBelly said...

Are you in my head????

It just sucks doesn't it. And no, the glass of wine I just had doesn't help either.

I love you, my friend. I tell myself all the time, "If TCIE can do it, so can I."

At least you're not alone in the left behind club.

Katie @ Persevere in Prayer said...

You explained the haves and have nots perfectly. That's one of the reasons I feel so guilty about joining the blogosphere 2 days before my BFP. After 18 1/2 months of not conceiving, I FINALLY convinced myself to join the "have nots" club. A little too late. But I don't want to be the "have" woman who posts all those baby titles that may hurt other subfertiles. I think I already included one in one of my previous posts without thinking about it til afterward. I don't want to get sucked into that mentality without forgetting my subfertile roots.

The Comeaus said...

I have recently been shoved aside by friends who have more than one child. My "only" child is "just" one child and, on top of that, he's autistic so he doesn't develop normally like their kids and they figure we have that much less in common.

It hurt SO BAD. But I've moved on.

I think there's an enormous risk to real, true envy in infertile people and the risk that infertility will actually harm our relationship with God. Obviously. But I don't see many infertile people fighting these tendencies. I see a lot of, "Why them and not me? I hate people who get pregnant easily!"

I used to feel that way myself, until I learned something that changed me completely: resenting God's plans for others and feeling sadness at their joy is a kind of blasphemy because it's accusing God of loving one more than the other and it's saying that we know what is best for us when, obviously, we really don't.

God doesn't give babies as rewards or withhold them as "punishment." I also believe that when we are suffering from infertility/secondary infertility, it's a test of our loyalty to others. Yes, those around us have large, growing families. But does that ruin our friendship with them? Yes, they are insensitive half the time when they announce their pregnancies; but can we not forgive that, and do we have to do dislike them forever for that?

I realize that you yourself aren't saying these things. But I see it on a lot of infertility blogs and it troubles me. Feelings are one thing, but, my goodness, there's also an awful lot of real envy out there, and I think it's a very dangerous thing. I know, because I've been there, so this is hardly a judgment.

It's normal to be sad when we can't have what we most desire, but it's not healthy or right to dislike people themselves because they have what we don't have. And it's even worse to accuse God of being unfair. He is such a good God and deserves our love just because He IS God and He IS so good. I don't see a lot of that on most infertility blogs. I actually see a lot of stuff that's called "venting" but seems much more serious than that.

Baby blogs are too hard for me to read. So are infertility blogs, half the time. I want to find some middle ground. I can't pretend I'm not hurting, but I also don't want to be bitter. I want to be loyal no matter what.

You have so many people praying for you. I don't have that. You have so much support here, whereas my friends online and in real life have largely turned away.

Infertile Catholic said...

Thank you so much for linking that article.

CS said...

Oh Man! I totally hear you! While I'm doing better about all this, I still am rather touchy about pregnancy - even if I'm super happy for a former IF gal. I don't need to know what size fruit their little bean is right now.

I actually devote great amounts of time dreaming about starting an obnoxious pregnancy blog if I ever make it to the flip side, because I don't want to gum up my IF blog with happy preggo vibes, nor would I want to tone down the happiness should I ever actually have it.

prayerfuljourney said...

This was a really good put it all out there and with such honesty. It's so true..the women who had IF and are now parents can relate to those who suffer with IF still...they were there but the ones still waiting can not relate to the "others". It's too hard. We just don't know that other side. In my case...I'm pretty sure I'll never know.

I also like how you stated when a Catholic IF'er gets's like the ones in heaven are laughing at and taunting you.

So,,,in a nutshell...IF stinks. There's no other way to put it. IT DOES! Us IF'ers just have to put the stink aside and try to smell roses elsewhere, huh? :)

Thanks for your honest post...I do have to agree.

St. Rita's Roses said...

I am having computer here is my thoughts on my phone...loved ur post! So honest and I respect you so much for that! I agree with something..the complainers...being new to the blogging drives me batty when a IF'er complains ab being pregnant...its hard for me read. I pray so hard for the gift of life at age 38....that hearing someone complain is nutty to me..but hey..its there blog right...I do not have to read it. Again..just wanted to say....great post..and I found some of ur titles (of posts) hysterical.

doctorgianna said...

Believe me, title posts like "CD 1" and "I hate AF!!" really pierce my heart. I was just telling my DH about 15 minutes ago that I am frustrated with my job because I deal with infertility and it is so unsettling to me. And I agree with you....Catholic IF news articles bug me because they always have a happy ending or make people think there will always be a happy ending. People who read those articles come to me and think I'm going to save them. I had to have a discussion with one couple yesterday just about what their expectations were because their particular problem would be very difficult to overcome in order to have a pregnancy.

But over all, I thank you for this post. It's a lot of food for thought for us cross-overs.

Hebrews 11:1 said...

Three things:

1) I love you

2) this post is beyond amazing

3) my word verification is splat. Tell me that's not hilarious.

Praying for Hope said...

I understand where you're coming from. You always relate best to those going through what you are. It's not easy on the other side of the schism trying to balance your hopes and experiences of pregnancy and child rearing and write on them in a way that won't hurt those waiting for their turn on the have not side. You want to be able to relate the hardships as well as the joys while trying to no sound as if you're complaining.

Sarah said...

sweet jane... I had similar thoughts! I was an editor who managed the marriage section of a Christian website for all the years I was a single, eligible bachelorette. Sometimes the hardest were the Catholic weddings... like, God had a special, super spiritual, heaven-sent vocation for everyone but me. I am sure my blog now annoys my single friends. :(

TCIE, I admire your honesty too.

Sew said...

you are completely right that the two sides can not relate anymore.

It's like a single girl hanging out with a married couple... :) They can maintain friendship but not understand the deep longing desires of other's troubles.

Just like you can't understand what it's like to be attached to someone 24 hours a day even though its your longing, I have forgotten what that longing feels like because I no longer am attached to it.

I am laughing so hard at your titles.....You are so damn funny about writing about the truth! I don't know if I should be laughing...

Oh and I want to add one thing that was stated I think in the above comments about being blessed with a baby they must be holy. ha! Seriously, if I were to make it to a "holy" point b4 having kids, well you read my blog....You get me. ;) I see how completely unholy and a pitiful human being I really am....

Love you sista! I love these posts! ;)

Molly M. said...

I totally understand your feelings. I've had two people I care very deeply about find out they were pregnant and announce shortly after a m/c for me. And, what always hurts the most is their due date is right when mine would have been. I feel terrible and guilty when I get so upset and don't want to talk to them.

Prayers and blessings to you. It's very good to know I'm not alone in my feelings.

Second Chances said...

I too won't lie and say this post didn't hurt a bit. I guess I just wish we could support each other as a community of faithful, Catholic women, regardless of the cross we're bearing at the time (IF or caring for a newborn). We all know that both of those situations are blessings and crosses blended together.

I'm worried that the more we focus on how far apart we are, the less we're going to pull together. It makes me sad because I love so much all of the women who supported me through my IF and I want to do the same now, but I feel like I'm not welcome to do so because I'm no longer in the same boat.

I'm probably taking this wayyyy to personally. Sorry if I'm reading this the wrong way.

Louis and Amber Massett said...
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Fertile Thoughts said...

oops, just posted under wrong blog name.

Anyways, I think you make some really great points! And that is a great idea to take the post titles of our blogs...
I guess it didn't click for me that maybe I could be hurting someone IF feeling's by my post title, hum. That gives me something to think about.

Meg @ True, Good and Beautiful said...

As someone who has recently become a "have" (technically, though I move forward with fear and trepidation and still quite a bit of disbelief), I have to admit that it's hard. The community that I was once a part of...I feel on the outside. I think over every word I write because I don't want to be insensitive, and in our particular situation (experiencing a tremendous gift which in turn caused a very painful loss) it was hard to communicate the grief in a way that I hoped wouldn't insult anyone. I'm not sure how well I did. Even going through that loss, I felt less supported because I had experienced a gain at the same time. This is just how I have felt, it may or may not be the reality. It just sucked in every way.

All that being said, I completely understand the "schism" and don't hold it against anyone still waiting. It was only a few weeks ago that I did it too and I think self-preservation is important. And to the "haves," I say, we should be sensitive and considerate always, but God does deserve our praise and rejoicing (we all know He heard plenty of crying and complaining.) There must be a way to do both.

I'm sure there are spiritual implications; there are some bouncing around my head right now, but I'm not prepared to write about it. Perhaps a post will emerge sometime soon. Be assured of prayers.

Second Chances said...

I did just write a post, as you know TCIE, on this topic too. It's such a toughie. BUT, I hope we can focus on what UNITES us as Catholic women. That's what I love about prayer buddies. Is it almost time for that again?

Amy @ This Cross I Embrace said...

Lent!! (My favorite PB time, and favorite season!)

Anonymous said...

So I'm a little confused, what have we been kidding ourselves about?

I caught that too about the article and was a little bummed that they didn't interview more people still in the trenches, but it seemed to me that the most popular/original infertility bloggers were interviewed and well, many of you all now have kids. And the point of the article wasn't "Look, infertility sucks." It was "Look, infertile Catholic women bond together by having this same suffering." Which we do. And once infertile, always infertile, right? Or maybe not is your point? Some people are eventually reprieved of that suffering. It has nothing to do with 'earning' your way out of it, and I think that's the danger in bonding too close with friends who are going through the same thing because while it makes it seem like "We have the same cross!" we don't. I think the article could have done a better job of pointing out that infertility is still a very, very individual cross, which is what makes it difficult when people make comments such as "OH i KNOW how you're feeling." Each of our paths are different. I'm feeling this too as I had two close pen-pals and we were all going through this together. Their pregnancies have reminded me that while I'd love to find strength only through them, it ultimately comes down to between ME and GOD and no one else. Not even my husband.

I think you are right and smart to separate the blogs on your side bar and I for one appreciate it, because their IS a difference. I'm guessing what makes this struggle more personal is that you were so close with many of those women so you have literally lost friends (or at least friends who completely understand where you're coming from because they are there too). The infertility club is a necessary but tense one...its one you rely on to help you through the day but deep down, you can't wait to get out of. Isn't that the point? The struggle of women being where they don't want to be? I agree with being gracious once you are pregnant and not totally forgetting your "roots" because we have all bonded on something that many people will never know about. That's why I found those blogger buttons especially nice since they were made by a woman with a child of her own now. Honestly, what's hard for me to understand is when people who desired for sooo loooong to be pregnant do not act super excited and grateful when they finally are. It makes me seriously question if they really desired motherhood or just attention for their suffering.

Laura said...

This was a really good blog (good in the way that it was very explanatory and I can relate to it amazingly well). [sigh] I know exactly how you feel.

Prayers for you coming your way.


Beth R said...

I'll admit it, I'm bitter and jealous of any pregnant woman. I think it hurts even more when "infertiles" get pregnant, why is it they can and I can't? As wrong as I know it is I cannot help but think "God loves them more" or "they are better people than I am." I have "perfect" cycles, even my Dr scratches his head in confusion on why we aren't one of the lucky ones yet. This just makes me even more convinced that I am not worthy of being a mother and that the "haves" are worthy in some way.

Perhaps it's coping but I cannot help but think all we in this awful place feel the same at some point.

Mary said...

I haven't read your next post yet - but I wanted to say thank you to "The Comeaus"...I think it's not right for people - on either "side" - to say that one side is more "blessed" than the other. I had an issue with this recently when a friend of mine said something about how she didn't know why she was "blessed" and other people (aka me) are not. I wanted to say HEY! I AM VERY BLESSED DANGNABIT!...but of course I know she was really trying to be kind and sensitive! So I wouldn't say that!...but I think we need to make sure people know that it's not a punishment from God, it's not Him "blessing" some and punishing others. Just wanted to get that out there :)
TCIE you are honest and open in your blogging and there is no reason you can't be!!!

Anonymous said...

Totally coming late to this whole conversation, but I just wanted to say that I understood this post very well. I definitely agree that there is a huge divide in infertiles who are parenting, and those still waiting - it's inevitable, as people tend to gravitate toward those in the same place in life (as we've all experienced already IRL with losing friends to parenthood).
It's strange, being on the cusp of moving on to the "other side", but not quite there yet. AF doesn't hurt like it used to since we have something to look forward to, but pregnancy announcements still hurt to hear.

All in His Perfect Timing said...

TCIE, I agree very much with your post! I feel like you have described my feelings on the topic perfectly. As a still TTC after 4.5 years, the emotions of unhappiness, longing, and even twinges of envy are still there, mixed with happiness. Yes, I'm happy for those God chooses to bless, but I wonder .... when will it be me???

daniellec said...

I hope it is ok to post in the comments section.
I am a doctoral student at the University of Michigan researching Catholic women's experience with infertility. I am looking for Catholic infertile women to interview and hope that you will contact me if you would like to share your experience.
I would be happy to conduct interviews over the phone/skype if you are not in the Michigan area.
For more information, or to volunteer, please contact me:
Danielle Czarnecki, PhD student
Dept. of Sociology, University of Michigan
dczar at umich dot edu

Thanks & Best wishes,

This study has been reviewed and approved by The Health Sciences and Behavioral Sciences Institutional Review Boards (IRB-HSBS)